Sourcecode ?

Posts relating to the Pathfinder project
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Ghostface
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Postby Ghostface » Fri Feb 28, 2003 12:34 pm

Hi all,

Great job with this mod, i would love to take a look at the src, so where can i find it ?

Keep up the good work
Greetings
Ghostface

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Postby mSparks » Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:29 pm

the aq2.exe source is coming, I still have to finish the alteration log to comply with the gpl license requirements (should be out in the next few days), unfortunatley it is based of the <a href='http://q2ice.iceware.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewsdownload&sid=2' target='_blank'>q2ice source</a>, so although my alterations will be included in the source files, idle did not put them in his :(.
I have plans to release the ltktbm source (the origonal aq2 bot mod, never under the gpl license) but it will not be untill after the final version is released.
I have released my pathfinding code under GPL already, which can be found on the downloads page.
The LTK source is available as public domain at <a href='http://www.actiongames.co.uk' target='_blank'>actiongames</a> in their AQ2>ltk section
© Mark 'mSparks' Parker 2010
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Ghostface
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Postby Ghostface » Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:48 pm

Thats cool.

Btw.

I have plans to release the ltktbm source (the origonal aq2 bot mod, never under the gpl license) but it will not be untill after the final version is released.


You have to release the src because

A:
The GPL says that the whole combined program has to be released under the GPL


and

B: You are using stuff from the Pathfinding Project (that is gpled) so you have to release the gamex86.dll under the GPL.


i dont want to force you to release the src i can wait for it. So dont take any offense, i just wanted to inform you.

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Postby mSparks » Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:06 pm

The pathfinder source is completely my own work, I simply released a project that uses it under another license (like Id soft can do with the Q2 source)
I spent a long time contemplating the GPL issue with the gamex86 code.
None of the code used in it comes from GPL sources (although certain code, such as that of Lazarus's footstep code is available as public domain, and under GPL license).

In the end, I came to the conclusion that since ltktbm has never been either public domain, or GPL its inclusion is this project does not warrant it being taken under the same license. The same way that if you included mfc42.dll in a GPL project, you do not need to release its source.
it burns brains I know (mine anyhow) but I believe it comes under:
"In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License. "

Since gamex86.dll is based of the public domain mod code ID released some years ago, and the program would work equally well with a standard AQ2 dll, and similarily ltktbm will work EXACTLY the same with a standard quake 2 install (footsteps an all). the two pieces of code are actually unrelated.
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Ghostface
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Postby Ghostface » Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:13 pm

hmm interesting, i didnt know the pathfinder project was your work, its pretty impressive :)
Keep up the good work

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Postby mSparks » Sat Mar 01, 2003 1:03 pm

heh, yeah, I've just realised while writing up the changelog for the engine source that the source code is prolly missing the:
Copyright © 2002 Mark 'mSparks' Parker.
at the top :P I'll add it when this is finished

If you plan on using it, can you ensure that line gets added to any source you release.
I cant remember exactly, but I think that from that version, serveral new functions have been added to the compiler code since the developement of this project, which will be included in the forthcoming crt compiler gpl release (the code now used to compile routes). I've written so much code since then I cant remember if I copied the new functions over to that release.
funny thing is, way back in the days when when writing bots was the 'in' thing, I posted that project on several bot coding sites and it didn't recieve 1 reply, which always puzzled me, because I've never seen any other project even similar to it, and there was never any working project available that used any of the published pathfinding algorithms, so I wrote my own.

Its also a nice 'chalk mark' as to how far my coding and algorithm skills have come. The compiler that I wrote for the origonal v2.3 used a 'try every link till you find your goal' method, and could quite often take 12+ hours to compile a lnd file if it wasn't made properly, which was extremely frustrating, especially when you had a bad nodefile, and the routes were only displayed textually.
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Postby Ghostface » Sat Mar 01, 2003 1:25 pm

ill do it like i always do ,

1. completely new src files gets a copyright thingy on the top of the file
2. a credit entry like "Pathfinding code by Copyright © 2002 Mark 'mSparks' Parker"

I dont want to build a game based on your code, i just want to improve my bots with parts of your code.
Btw. i am just interested in the gamex86 code.

Greetings Chris

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Postby mSparks » Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:27 pm

cool, np, you got a webby so I can check out what you got?
also, if you fancy discussing anything botty etc you can reach me on msn almost 24/7
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Ghostface
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Postby Ghostface » Sat Mar 01, 2003 5:26 pm

cool i added you, website is under construction and i dont want to post the url in public until it is finished

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Postby mSparks » Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:43 am

:D, methinks someone didn't read the source header, it is in the pathfinder.cpp source - the only source file needed for pathfinder (Copyright © mSparks 2K1). You can check out a description of this, and some of the other projects I've have done/developed under <a href='http://www.cam-direct.co.uk/prog.shtml' target='_blank'>PCP HOME>Resources>Programming</a>

Right, what I have decided todo with the LTKTBM source.
I am, and always have been VERY wary of any kind of source distribution including SAI, its my baby, and I hope, someday to get well paid for its discovery, yet from what I've experienced in the past, I dont feel trusting enough atm to publish either the documentation on how it works or the source code it produces. however, I am not adverse to other coders using my work (which is why I released pathfinder under GPL). The next release of LTKTBM contains some big and cool updates, which shadow previous releases by comparison, also, ltktbm 1.3 does not contain any SAI/teamplay AI code, its just a fixed version of ltk1.22 with the pathfinder code implimented and 1 or two nice manual additions to the AI. So what I plan is, the release of LTKTBM 1.5 will be accompanied by a source release of LTKTBM 1.3.

Also, as I mentioned b4, that pathfinder project has been updated, included in that release is CS_italy-broken.wpt which pathfinder v1.0 won't compile, but the latest version (used for crtcompiler and tbm1.3) contains code that automatically fixes that and other problems, so under the latest code CS_italy-broken.wpt will compile without problems and a working .lnd/.crt pair be produced. I'll get onto releasing pathfinder 1.1 and the source to crtcompiler which contains this code as soon as I've got a free moment.

Hope this satisfies your hunger, mSparks out.
© Mark 'mSparks' Parker 2010

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Ghostface
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Postby Ghostface » Mon Mar 03, 2003 12:38 pm

hmm
Since gamex86.dll is based of the public domain mod code ID released some years ago, and the program would work equally well with a standard AQ2 dll, and similarily ltktbm will work EXACTLY the same with a standard quake 2 install (footsteps an all). the two pieces of code are actually unrelated.


Yeah but the gpl says that you if you distribute the quake2.exe (GPL) with the gamex86.dll you have to release the src for both.

A workaround is that you do a seperate download for the gamex86.dll.

But i dont think that anyone will blame you for releasing the src too late.

btw, whats SAI ?

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Postby mSparks » Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:58 pm

:)
SAI is a method of programming AI which allows for a high degree of learning capabilities without the hassle of neural nets, such as movement, and general choices when trying to achieve a certain goal (e.g. you set up 'learn how best to kill your opponent', and it goes about doing it) its a collective intelegence (hence Borg) and involves several different forms of matrix calcuations (hence the Borg Matrix).
its usefull for all kinds of tasks, such as spying on mIRC channels (goal="find me good info") and by far the best results have been had from graphical picture analysis.
LTKTBM was origonally implimented as its first trial run in an actual program about 4 years ago.
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Ghostface
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Postby Ghostface » Mon Mar 03, 2003 4:32 pm

thats cool...

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Postby mSparks » Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:25 am

slight change of plan with regards to going GPL with version 1.3. I've decided it would be more usefull to other mod developers to change the 1.3 code with some of the new AI features and release source code that plugs directly into the Q2 engine source, so you get bot support no matter what mod your using.
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Postby mSparks » Tue May 13, 2003 7:05 pm

I never updated this thread after I posted the news, and as idles just reminded me, theres been a few more developements since I last posted here.
1stly, I wont have the time anytime soon to release a bot SDK, so its going to have to be a dll release.
secondly it doesn't look like I have the rights to re-license this source under GPL, so it will have to be under the origonal Q2 license.
thirdly, pathfinder. the pathfinder source will be pulled from the download page shortly, and put in a seperate, password protected developers section, and made available under a seperate open license to those who gain permission. gaining access to this area will possibly require sending a NDA and different access limited on a 'per case' basis, I'm still undecided as to exactly what todo with this, I'm considering two or three levels of developer area, 1 open to everybody, for non commercial use only (i.e all content and any code available as free to use depending on the project being non commercial, a second level which gives access to other source code/licenses on a per project basis, and a third level for commercial projects) but basically I'm just toying with ideas for when I update the site.
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